Sat 3 Jul 2021 1:33PM

How can we celebrate positive aspects of our nation without the use of language that has been hijacked by racist parties in the past

PV Pirate Vik Public Seen by 45

Terms such as Nationalist have been mired by european parties like the National Front. Is there better language that allows us to find a consensus with people who wish to celebrate their nations successes. Are we really that far part or are these issues of division partly caused by the use of language that means different things to different people?


Pirate Vik Sat 3 Jul 2021 3:08PM

One suggestion from the matrix room was around the use of the word "dharma" as an alternative to nationalism


Pirate Vik Sat 3 Jul 2021 3:09PM

@Pirate Praveen made this contribution this link "Dharma is not exactly the same for each of these castes. One’s duty, one’s vocation, even one’s moral obligations are different for the brahmin priest and for the king. Dharma differs for women and for men, for young persons and for elders. “Better one’s own dharma, though imperfect, than another’s dharma well-performed,” says Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. In this sense, dharma is not a universally applicable “law” at all, but highly contextual."


Pankaj Jangid Mon 5 Jul 2021 4:56AM

The link shared lacks understanding of the word "Dharma" from the point of view of indigenous people. As discussed in the matrix room, caste is not a concept that was known to people here when the term "Dharma" was coined. Also, Varna, Caste, Jaati and Vansh - all have different meanings.

Varna is based your one's learnings and profession. Everyone is born Shudra. But based on his/her learnings and the profession, he or she is re-born into Kshatriya, Brahman or Vaishya. The reason for this is clear from the word "Dwija". Dwija means the one who is born twice - Dwi + Ja. Khatriya, Brahman and Vaishya varnas are also called "Dwija". If I apply the terminology to current times then the politicians elected to offices are Kshatriyas irrespective of their Jaati, the IAS and other officers and any other person who is not directly in a ruling office but guiding the elected representatives are Brahmins (again don't confuse with Jaati). 3rd is Vaishya, who doesn't have anything to do with ruling offices except voting, those who make living out of doing work (job, entrepreneurs etc.). Shudras are those who doesn't fall into any of the three categories. The important thing is that Varnas can be changed.

Dharma is based on Varna. My gut feeling is that if the Varna system is endorsed then the Jaati and Casteism will vanish. This is happening in cities at least - doctors are marrying doctors, IT professionals are getting married in the same varna. This is happening irrespective of Jaati.


Pirate Praveen Mon 5 Jul 2021 11:35AM

We have already made our stand on caste, you can see it here The fundamental problem with these classifications is dividing people based on birth, some are considered superior and some inferior, so we reject all of it. May be you are just stating what you want Varna to be, not what is accepted and practiced. Dalits are excluded in this Varna system. I don't think your claims that Varnas can be changed is backed by any evidence. Is Doctors marrying Doctors inter-caste marriages (are they marrying outside their jaati) ? What percentage of marriages are inter-caste?


Pirate Praveen Mon 5 Jul 2021 2:07PM

"The Purusha Suktha, the 90th hymn in the 10th Book of the Rig Veda, presents a cosmogony that describes the creation of man. From the head of a primeval God, arose the Brahmans (priests, scholars), from the arms, Kshatriya (kings, warriors), the thighs, Vaishya (merchants, cultivators) and the feet, Shudra (servants, slaves). While this visioning for society was not yet caste, it does implicitly and divinely ordain genesis directly into a compartments of graded inequality. It is very important to note that there is no neutrality in such a design. In other places throughout the texts and even today in most of modern South Asia, the head has always been considered superior and the feet lowly, ritually unclean and polluting."


Pankaj Jangid Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:11PM

I agree that dividing people based on birth is wrong and we are on the same page. But that is not what varna system was. This is not something that I am imagining. It comes from Atharva, Yajur etc. Vedas. If we are clear on the definition of varnas then I think a lot of problems are solved.

See following links:




(Note: the above links are in Sanskrit and Hindi. But I am sure we can find English translations also)

All people are divided into four categories. And all are born Shudra. Terms like "Dalit" are not from that era. These are newly coined terms.

I agree that inter-jaati marriages are a tiny fractions. But I compare it with my parents time. In that time, about 50 yrs ago, it was almost impossible. Marriages in same profession are now common in cities at least.

As I said that varnas are based on profession. If you look at purush-sukta from this perspective then it is a metaphor for kind of work. And clearly if you read about purusha and prajapati in the purus-sukta, you will realize that no one is less important. Why hands and legs less important than head?


Pirate Praveen Mon 5 Jul 2021 5:58PM

Why hands and legs less important than head?

Are you saying there is absolutely no hierarchy in varna system? and people don't consider legs as impure or less important than head?


Pankaj Jangid Tue 6 Jul 2021 2:04AM

It cannot be absolute. But what is important is that, even today, any person is allowed to be Prime Minister, irrespective of Jaati. Anyone can be IAS, anyone can be businessmen or do other jobs. Or he is free to do nothing. This is purely division of work and one can aspire to do anything based on the qualities an knowledge he possesses.


Pirate Praveen Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:36AM

Do you think the representation of jaatis is roughly proportional to their size (percentage of total population), when it comes to high paying and influential positions?


Pankaj Jangid Tue 6 Jul 2021 11:30AM

No. I don't think so. All because the varna system is not in place. Society has shifted to birth-based system.

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