Element banning: How should FSCI react to it?
Kannan V M Tue 2 May 2023 2:59PMPublicSeen by 17Element is a client side application that communicates using matrix protocol. It is announced that element mobile app will be blocked in India. It is vague what will happen to other matrix clients, including element web and servers that is hosting it, and matrix servers. Technicality on how it will will be implemented on a federated service aside, we need to face few questions,
Since we host synapse and element web, how should we face this order to block element app?
This goes beyond just hosting services, but also we are promoting and encouraging people to use these apps. What will be the future of that?
What is the legality of this blocking, is this just an attempt to get element app out of playstore, or somehow service providers like us will be under shadow of "actions against the interests of nation" or worse?
Pirate PraveenTue 2 May 2023 3:48PM
From their logic “These apps do not have any representatives in India and cannot be contacted for seeking information as mandated by the Indian laws,” it appears they are really about the service and don't understand apps and service can be different.
https://indianexpress.com/article/india/mobile-apps-blocked-jammu-kashmir-terrorists-8585046/
Kannan V MTue 2 May 2023 4:26PM
Could not find the order.
Pirate PraveenWed 3 May 2023 12:36PM
We had a meeting with other Free Software communities today about this issue and we will collaborate on challenging this order in a court of law. For now, lets draft a statement to inform people about the implications of this ban.
Pirate PraveenWed 3 May 2023 12:42PM
I'm starting a draft here https://cryptpad.fr/pad/#/2/pad/edit/uOa77lfKWzEfcPkoVckggECy/ please contribute
Pirate BadyWed 3 May 2023 3:13PM
Forwarding message from Akhil since he has no direct access to post in this group:
I think we should skip Threema from the list as it's like Telegram with a proprietary backend. And it also makes our response easier to draft with critical points. Please check the current draft.
Publish our statement on banning of Element and Briar
proposal by Pirate Praveen Closed Sun 18 Jun 2023 6:11PM
FSCI statement on banning of Free Software apps like Element and Briar.
As per media reports, 14 apps including Free Software ones like Element and Briar are banned in India as of 3rd May.[1] As per reports the reasoning behind the ban seems to be, “These apps do not have any representatives in India and cannot be contacted for seeking information as mandated by the Indian laws”. This statement indicates to us that there are gaps in understanding on how federated services work (see Notes section below for a detailed explanation).
There is a lack of clarity on the manner in which the ban will be implemented. We assume that the applications will be de-listed from the app stores.
Element, the company behind Element app, has put out a statement [2] explaining their position on the ban. We get to know that Indian authorities have contacted them in the past to which they have responded constructively which goes against observed reasoning for the ban. Element also had to know about the ban from media reports since there was no communication informing them of the ban.
While Element never compromises end-to-end encryption or user privacy, we have been contacted by Indian authorities in the past and addressed them in a constructive fashion (typically responding same-day).
As we understand it, Indian government officials claim to have approved the ban due to Element (and other apps) not having representatives in India.
That is a bit of guesswork on our part, because we did not receive any prior notice of the decision; clarification from the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology would be most welcome.
There seems to be a lack of understanding on part of the government on how these P2P software as well as federated apps work. These applications have been crucial for communication during disasters and are used regularly as communication medium in workplaces.
The Ban, we believe, will not serve the purpose as there are many anonymous alternate apps that can be used by terror outfits to fill their purpose.
Federated, peer-to-peer, encrypted, Free Software apps/software like Element and Briar, should be promoted. They are key to our national security as they provide means to enable sovereign, private and secure communication to citizens of India. Element has been embraced by Governments of France [3], Germany [4] and Sweden [5] which should be an example for India.
Notes:
Email is federated, has existed for a long time, and the logic which they applied to banning Element would apply to K-9 Mail, a Free Software client app for email, as well. Email service is provided by many service providers like Google, Microsoft and many others who doesn't have any representatives in India. Matrix, like email, is federated and is the protocol behind the service. Element is just one of the matrix clients and matrix.org is just one of the matrix service providers. Banning all instances, clients and implementations of matrix is similar to banning all email service providers, email clients and whole email infrastructure, which would be nearly impossible for the government and a new service provider and/or client can come up very easily rather quickly.
Similar to how Matrix is federated, Briar is a P2P (peer to peer) app which means it does not even have a service provider and users who use it need to be online concurrently. Also it does not require internet connection and can be used over a bluetooth or wireless connection. It is useful in emergency situations like natural disasters where all other mediums for communications becomes offline.
We had to share the archive.is link to the statement put out by Element since their website element.io is already blocked by multiple ISPs.
References:
[1] https://indianexpress.com/article/india/mobile-apps-blocked-jammu-kashmir-terrorists-8585046/
[3] https://element.io/case-studies/tchap
Results
| Results | Option | Votes | % of votes cast | % of eligible voters | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Agree | 3 | 100 | 12 | | |
| Abstain | 0 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Disagree | 0 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Block | 0 | 0 | 0 | ||
| Undecided | 23 | 88 |            |
Pirate Praveen
Wed 3 May 2023 7:27PM
Comparison with email helps people understand the impact and references to France, Germany and Sweden embracing element/matrix highlights to folly of Atmanirbhar Bharat claims.
Pirate PraveenFri 5 May 2023 12:01PM
Element released their statement https://element.io/blog/india-bans-flagship-client-for-the-matrix-network/
Pirate PraveenFri 5 May 2023 12:09PM
https://archive.is/IDNoe in case they block element.io
Pirate Praveen ·Tue 2 May 2023 3:36PM
About the specific actions we need to take, I don't know the details yet. But from a legal point of view, I think this should be challenged in a court of law. We can probably start with a statement that will explain the issue to the general public and collaborate with IFF/SFLC.in to challenge this in a High Court or in Supreme Court. We probably need the exact copy of the order and know how are we supposed to comply with it.