Pick and fund a maps app

i have tried many, virtually all maps on android, and honestly i never saw a trulyᵗᵐ free one as good as organic. i use it instead of google for everything.

it does miss photos, reviews, street view, and such other features that might still take a long time before the free community will make it real, if ever, routing for over 100km do take a long time, and navigation might never include traffic information, but i also never really use gmaps by myself anymore, as i rather feel like i live away from traffic, distant from big cities, and enjoying the serendipity of finding places closed or unexpected things.

i just need a map that help me navigate outside (i don't even have any big computers such as a laptop ever since 2019), and organic has done it wonderfully. from what i read about the alternatives, they don't come even close.

i wished they all simply could collaborate among themselves into 1 app only!

Adding links for reference:

• GNOME Maps: https://apps.gnome.org/Maps/

• Pure Maps: https://rinigus.github.io/pure-maps/

• osmin: https://github.com/janbar/osmin

• Organic Maps: https://organicmaps.app/

• mepo: https://mepo.lrdu.org/

• GPS passthrough for Waydroid (issue): https://github.com/waydroid/waydroid/issues/226

I haven't really used these (except Organic Maps a bit) so will need to know more before making a decision. It looks like a tradeoff between:

• Best looks/integration (GNOME Maps)

• Most features (GPS passthrough for Waydroid, unfortunately)

• Quickest to get going (probably Pure Maps)

Ideally I would choose GNOME Maps since it uses GTK and is already designed with our ecosystem in mind. But that would mean implementing many features, including adding navigation from scratch. So that would take a lot of time and effort.

On the other hand, enabling Waydroid passthrough will give us access to a substantial number of Android mapping applications (including contribution-oriented apps like Street Complete and Vespucci). This will open up many more options with just one (albeit difficult) task. The trade-off is we are not developing native apps, instead we are still dependent to some extent on the Android ecosystem.

Pure Maps and Organic Maps would be a compromise between the two since they have most commonly desired features but need work on the interface (Pure Maps) or tweaks to run properly on the Mobian (Organic Maps). Organic Maps has the best visual appearance, although it might look more out of place in Phosh than it does on Android.

Other thoughts:

• Maybe "not easy to install" is not such a big issue for osmin? If it has the features we need, then building it/simplifying the install process for Mobian might be our only job. So we can consider it as a similar option as Organic Maps

• mepo looks appealing to me when I'm using sway! But it might be too "technical looking" for some. "Bad design" is a common criticism of free software projects so if we are trying to get more people onto mobile linux we should choose something more visually appealing to ordinary users

Personally (i.e. for my own use case) I would go with Waydroid passthrough. Currently I don't use a smartphone (Linux or otherwise) and if I get one, one of the main purposes apart from messaging would be to contribute to OSM. Since the mainline options are currently limited, having access to Android apps would make running mainline Linux more viable.

In general we should decide how much effort to put on Android app compatibility vs. developing native apps. Maybe we can have a "stepping stone" approach? So, first we (a) support ways for Android apps to work "well enough" on Mobian (i.e. GPS passthrough for Waydroid in this case), and then (b) choose one native app and focus on developing that so the Android apps are no longer necessary.

@Badri Sunderarajan I have changed my first preference to add Waydroid GPS pass through support. Some people have done it already - so proof of concept exist. So it seems the sure shot option to get the best map/navigation experience right now (at the cost of waydroid dependency - but waydroid itself and organic maps/osmand is Free Software, so no compromise on philosophy).

@Pirate Praveen I was thinking of how these preferences would align with phone preferences. I think Waydroid GPS pass through is more like FLX1 (get as many things working as possible and reasonably polished) whereas Pure Maps or GNOME Maps is more like Librem 5 (design good options for our own ecosystem/environment). Both have their place.

PinePhone philosophy has been "make the hardware available, and software will come". That sounds good to me in theory, but personally I wouldn't want to buy a device unless there is usable software for it (especially expensive devices; funds is also an issue). But once those options are there I could be motivated to work on better options (eg. once I have mapping apps, I can work on GTK mapping apps). That is a bit theoretical though; we need to see how much I actually contribute 🙃

So I think I have an idea for my preference list now: start with Waydroid GPS. Hopefully that will be completed soon, in which case we can turn our focus to a "designed for mainline" app (which in my opinion is a much better development experience)

@Badri Sunderarajan From this feedback https://convo.casa/@hello_fellow_humans/113026314184293015 waydroid would require higher hardware specs so I'll move it down in my preference list.

@Pirate Praveen ohh I didn't think of that. My laptop handles Waydroid without any issues, but with phones it would be a problem. (FLX1 is using Droidian so maybe instead of Waydroid they're somehow accessing the Android core directly?)

Saw from posts that FLX1 is using Waydroid for their Android app support.

FLX1 has 6GB RAM and octa core processor so it should be able to handle waydroid fine, but other phones will have a tough time.

@Pirate Praveen looks like FLX1 already supports GPS passthrough out of the box! It looks like people who want to run Android apps will have to use something like FLX1 anyway, so the problem is already solved for them.

https://fosstodon.org/@alaraajavamma/113028154139851778

As you mentioned Waydroid is anyway out of the question for Librem 5 and PinePhone (the only one I'm not sure about is Volla Phone, and maybe other Droidians). So in most common scenarios the problem is either not solveable or already solved.

(Side note, when I want location in Waydroid on desktop I use Fake Traveler to manually enter it)

Forgot about tablets—there might be uses there. But I don't know if existing tablets have GPS at all?

@Badri Sunderarajan Waydroid works fine on the Librem 5 , why would Waydroid be out of the equation for the L5. It works just fine there?

@Guido oops, I was basing my conclusion on the conversation that @Pirate Praveen linked to above. Both L5 and the older PinePhone have only 3GB, and I (wrongly) assumed this low RAM was the main barrier to using Waydroid on mobile.

Saw now that the commenter is using PinePhone; I guess Librem's other specs make up for the lower RAM. Maybe I'll increase the priority of GPS passthrough if it's a low hanging fruit that'll make more options available.

Any idea how well the Waydroid mapping apps work on Librem 5 (besides GPS, of course)?

@Badri Sunderarajan No idea about how well Waydroid mapping apps work. I'm happy enough with the pure Linux offerings. Only used Waydroid for testing / RE purposes so far and that was fine on the Librem 5.

The FLX1 uses a fork of waydroid. I guess this could just be installed on the Librem 5 instead of waydroid to get pass through

One thing I noticed about Pure Maps today, it needs creating an account/add API key with a map tiles provider before it can be used. Organic Maps, GNOME Maps or osmin don't need this.

@Pirate Praveen At least in the past Pure Maps didn't need this (and since then I have the maps offline). Are you using the osmscout server too?

@Guido the default is maptiler which needs an API Key. Organic Maps offline maps hosting is sponsored by some ISP, may be we can discuss if they are open to sharing the offline map infra or we can try to find some hosting sponsors for Pure Maps. I think having to create an account before using it is not an ideal situation.

@Pirate Praveen You need to install the OSM Scout Server. In there, you can download the maps for offline usage. Then you point your Pure Maps app to the server. Sounds like a lot of work, but it's a oneshot affair.

@Twiddling Scientist I think for a good experience for non technical users, we will have to make it easy to install this server.

@Pirate Praveen It's just another Flatpak. And yes, it should be easy, but let's not delude ourselves thinking that our grandparents are going to use mobile Linux anytime soon, right? :)

@Twiddling Scientist we are also comparing it with existing solutions - both osmin and organic maps have options to download the required maps without this extra step and process. So when we are looking to pick an app, this is plus for osmin and organic maps whereas minus for pure maps. At the end we will look the overall picture and each of these aspects will go into that final score for each app. Though each of us may have a different weight for how important each of these aspects are.

Just opened GNOME Maps and Organic Maps and remembered how cluttered the former looks. Organic Maps folks have done a good job in making it less cluttered. Attaching screenshots below (both are from laptop, with Organic Maps on Waydroid. I'm trying to build the desktop version of Organic Maps to get a screenshot of that too).

It struck me that while UI is on the edges, the main part of the map application is the map itself! So how that's displayed is also important. If I had to choose between GNOME Maps and Organic Maps on desktop based on looks, even though GNOME Maps technically has a "better fitting" GTK theme, Organic Maps still looks nicer due to the rendering of the map itself. It has better features too (apart from bus routes; there seem to be very few apps displaying those for some reason I haven't yet figured out)

If anyone has a screenshot of Pure Maps (and/or other options) to compare with, please share!

GNOME Maps (desktop version)

Organic Maps (Android version, running on laptop Waydroid)

Screenshot of Organic Maps taken from the Flathub page. The layout is indeed very different!

In fact the map colours look different too. If we anyway have to restyle them for different platforms, it might be better to do the restyling on something like Pure Maps which already runs on Mobian, rather than trying to port and restyle.

Organic Maps (desktop version, screenshot from Flathub)

Maybe a dumb question but what would to happen afterward? I.e. whom do you expect to change the mapping application as a result? A pick would likely depend on the available funding and the goals of the funding. E.g. if the maps app doesn't have offline capabilities would those be added? What about routing? Is the goal to get a usable app with minimal funds? All of these would influence my order of preference.

@Guido my idea (if we have better ideas, we can consider): after we pick an app, we will do poll for specific missing features. For example, if offline support comes up as a top priority, we will set a bounty for that feature, anyone can claim the bounty - we will also actively seek developers. We can also look for other funding sources too. For example in Prav, iOS app came as a top 5 priority feature (https://prav.app/blog/results-of-our-feature-priority-polls/) and we raised some money https://opencollective.com/prav-ios and we found the current Monal GSOC student willing to do the work. So once they complete the project, they can claim the funds we raised. For another top priority feature of new device trust management, we tried GSOC project route where we got a student to work on it and Google would pay, but unfortunately the project did not succeed. So we will explore all possible funding sources like crowd funding, grants, gsoc/outreachy etc.

Also there is a conflict among the current participants priority, for some Waydroid is an option, for others that is the last option. So you can vote based on your personal priorities and we will go with the final outcome of the poll (we have to pick one option since we have limited funds, so we are trying to find the most preferable option, but it may not satisfy everyone). Those who don't like the results still have the option of exploring other sources to support their favorite project.

@Pirate Praveen Thanks for the explanation. What you did for prav.app is more what I would have expected: Look for most wanted features, then pick an app based on that (and consult if the top prio missing features would be considered in scope), then close any functionality gaps. What happens if the poll picks map application NiceMapApp and the top rated feature is later on turn by turn navigation and the NiceAppMap maintainers consider turn by turn navigation out of scope?

@Guido there is always a possibility of maintainers not wanting a specific feature. At that point we have to either fork or pick another app that aligns. I don't think it is easy to predict such things. In my view, most of the time, it is a lack of resources that keeps user requests unattended. If this happens to us, we probably have to move to next app in the list or redo the poll without that app or see if we can fork it. Do you expect any app in the current list to be not interested in a specific feature? If we know such inputs, we can mention that against that app in the poll/thread. We could also do a poll on most important aspects of a mapping app in parallel and see the top pick is well aligned with what we want as priority. I started this thread for that https://codema.in/d/lvQjiUo6/ideal-maps-navigation-app-features we will verify the app we pick is in alignment with what we want before we pick the app.

@Pirate Praveen nice, I was about to suggest a parallel voting for features too :)

as i can't try the other apps except organic, i wonder if any of them allow at all to contribute back to osm, or if they actually use any other map source.

organic has limited options to add places to osm, but it does work wonderfully when matched with comments and engagement with osm community. i only ever use vespucci if i feel adventurous or have enough time to dedicate to all the extra options offered.

ps: i only have android devices for now, but i used to have a linux phone and will get back to it as soon as i find one stable enough!

If we use this snapshot as a basis to evaluate the apps and assign a score, then

Top 5 features: (assuming full points even if the feature is not perfect yet)

GNOME Maps gets 133 (adapted to mobile screen) + 105 (Easy to use) + 89 (public transport) = 327

Organic Maps gets 131 (Offline Maps) + 123 (turn by turn navigation) + 89 (public transport) = 349

Pure Maps gets 133 (adaptive) + 131 (offline) + 123 (turn by turn) + 105 (easy to use) = 492

Note: this is a rough approximation, we can probably look at more sophisticated calculation once the poll closes

if we/you (i don't have any funds) fund organic, we will have it properly ported and adapted, with all features, very fast! including easy to use, and much easier than any other map, ever.

they already did it android and ios, much harder to make it.

Since first two apps are very very close (Organic Maps has 111 points and 4.83 mean; GNOME Maps has 108 points and 4.7 mean), we can try and implement missing features in both? We can also talk to both upstream and see if they are in alignment with the other priority features poll (like if we manage to send them a merge request, would they accept).

I have an FLX1 now and it came with waydroid preinstalled. It also had F Droid, so I could install Organic Maps and it got location and works well, except for notification. Phosh tells there is notification from Organic Maps but can't display it. So we still need to integrate waydroid notifications to phosh I think (all android notifications need to be mapped).

@Pirate Praveen wow! Even displaying the fact that there is a notification is progress.

Just tried Organic Maps on Poco F1. The Waydroid app UI elements work, but there are some graphic issues with displaying the map itself that I'm yet to debug; here's what it looks like at the moment:

I also tried the QT version installed from Flathub. The UI is unresponsive and looks horrible, but I'm trying to figure it out so that I can test the features. If the features work fine then it may be relatively easy to adapt the UI:

As you can see the main window itself fits the screen, but the popups are not responsive.

Also there is unfortunately no way to tell Phosh to forcibly scale down the popups to match the screen size, as you can with other apps. I suspect this might be due to the fact that it's using Qt rather than GTK. The popup doesn't show as a separate entity (as it does in Dino, for example), and even if I apply the force-scaling to Organic Maps itself the popup remains too large for the screen. A workaround is to switch to landscape mode, which is enough to handle any popups I've encountered so far. This is likely to be a temporary issue till the app is mobile optimised, but it highlights how Qt doesn't fit in as well as GTK.

I'm yet to try the Qt version extensively. Let me know if you want me to test anything specific and I'll report back!