pirate network - collaborate with like-minded groups

http://www.piratar.is/policies/core-policy/?lang=en, this is a good policy from Island resd and coment this please?

http://www.pp-international.net/about India is a member of PPI could we update this please?

FYI: India is not a memer of PPI, last time I checked. However, PPI always monitor where Pirate Parties are active or where there are attempts to found one.

And also, PP-IS (Pirate Party Iceland), is as of today the single most successful Pirate Party in a parliament.
Czeck Republic and Germany are big on regional and local levels. Germany also have Julia Reda as a Pirate Member of EU-Parliament. European Pirate Party is in it's founding year and the first Council Meeting will be in Brussels 17-18 July. Everyone is welcome. Please see http://europeanpirateparty.eu

Pirate Greetings
Anders

What is "like-minded" groups? We seem to function like a Pirate version of secret seven type group. The excitement is in the meeting, the secret password and the lemonade, so to say. For a collaboration to make sense, there has to be a purpose. Do we have a purpose? It is unclear.

So far, what we do is react to current affairs/initiatives by others. That we can do by endorsing whatever our whim tells us to - no need for collaborations.

Otherwise, we need to get our act together first. Figure out what our core areas of interest are, how we could make a difference to them and begin a project or something ideally, but failing that, at least have a statement or stand based on information available and what we believe to be in the best interests of the world/country/state/district/locality. Once we have that, it becomes easier to introduce ourselves and our work to organizations doing relevant work and collaborate in ways that strengthen both.

Hope that makes sense.

Otherwise we will just create a larger group, say "hi" "I am blah, and you are?" "we will do good" "yeah, democracy" "win transparency", etc and stagnate as a larger group.

I agree with @vidyut and also realize that we're in a certain catch 22 here.

We need to make our constitution better, do more activities of our own, form a solid base to grow up on.

But for that to happen first we need to reach out to more people and get more people inside our circle.

I keep having this fancy dream of starting an organization/movement/party that stands for all the good things on earth, and then making it so popular that it ends up fixing the earth.

But how does that happen? I am not trained in movement genesis course. And I've little experience.

AAP seems to have risen because of India against corruption. Is there anything we can learn from them?

What can we do different from that progress party of Kerala which was posted here a few days back? Are we all doomed to end in the same fate?

Is there reason to be so hopeless? How did pirate parties in Europe succeed? When those parties were launched, was the cultural and social climate same as what we have now?

The question I have to ask would be, in our current situation, what is the best way to spend our time? We can't think of time as an infinite resource. Is it worth it to spend five hours on discussing a proposal about whether to put a small link to an article in a section of our website? Are such activities restricting what we can indeed do? Is there a way to do some thing that brings in more returns?

How to best bring in social change? How are revolutions created?

@akshay the key is in not losing hope, because the change is not going to come soon, we may not even see any major change in our lifetime. AAP did make it big in a short time, but I doubt they can scale it or sustain it now. Another thing that can help us keep calm is to realize Indian Pirates are not going to make the change alone. So if you think the time you are spending here can be spend elsewhere, feel free to explore those possibilities.

Revolutions happen after sustained efforts of many, there could be tipping points, but without long term sustained efforts, it cannot be sustained.

For me its about coming up with something we all agree and bringing more people to the fold, and its a continuous and slow process. it does need a lot of patience.

One way to do it, @Akshay would be to get volunteers to recruit members to Pirate Party. Remove the requirement of the constitution for now, and instead adopt the basic definition from Wikipedia - which is what anyone who has heard of Pirate party learns to expect. This rapidly brings us in alignment with the concept of Pirate Party instead of trying to redesign it from the ground up. It also removes a lot of confusion about who we are and what we aim to do, by definition.

We should start a thread where every member states their areas of interest with regard to governance or public life (including free speech, etc, but really, subject no bar - a country needs EVERYTHING relevant to have a coherent vision). When the thread gets some 3-5 people interested in one subject, they should be invited to collaborate privately on what they believe is the current state of the country/state/whatever and come up with a list of ideas they believe will improve matters. This should be debated in the community. Anything that gets agreed upon by larger community should be posted on record on the website.

New groups can be formed again (will likely have a lot of the original members) to come up with specific actionables and action plans. These can be discussed briefly in the larger community if needed, and the groups should be let loose to implement them how they deem appropriate with the blessings of the community and without further need to put every damn thing to the vote.

Highly suggest reading Richard Falkvinge's book detailing how Pirate Party grew from an idea - the key is that people were set free to take ownership and do whatever they thought was needed.

This absurd myth of voting on everything representing some dazzling ideal leads to paralysis because no one really knows whether they can do the idea they have in mind if 5 idle people doing absolutely nothing think it is a bad idea.

@vidyut like-minded groups is those who agree with our basic principles. The basic principles itself can evolve as we engage with more collectives.

It is difficult to invest yourself in a magnificent effort, if you aren't certain it will be allowed credibility. We urgently need a framework that appreciates all members and encourages them to own and shape the party instead of judging everything with upvotes and downvotes.

For example - reaching out to other groups. I imagine Praveen had something in mind when he spoke of collaboration. Us not knowing of it, don't see the idea as appropriate. Neither did Praveen make an effort to present the idea in a viable manner, nor is anyone else able to do anything with it, because in its current form, it doesn't work.

In contrast, if Praveen were to come up with a detailed proposal on what to collaborate on, with what kind of people, the scope, etc - I imagine it would be easy for people who find it useful to volunteer and run with it.

@praveenarimbrathod The basic principles are really, really not something I could present to anyone formally without embarrassment. Not because the intentions are bad, but because they have been put together so clumsily, inviting a collaboration based on that seems really .... amateurish and lacking any detailed vision.

Also, why would non members be required to adopt our principles? Would you adopt the principles of their organization as well? What all principles will the Pirate Party members end up accepting as a consequence?

If someone agrees with the principles, they should be members, not non-member collaborators.

There needs to be a clarity on what the principles signify and to whom.

Dear Vidyut and other interested.

I are very happy there is an initiative in India to establish a Pirate Party. It would possibly become one of the biggest Pirate Parties this world has seen if it's done right and India is ready.

I ask you all please to always remember that the Pirate Party Movement was founded on a few basic ideas.
These few ideas are followed strictly by many PPs and always by the ones with success. They actually give voters a very different political party to vote for.

The core ideas are very well summarized in michael's link to Pirate Party Iceland. Further you will find the tasks and goals of Pirate Parties International here wiki.pp-international.net/Statutes#Tasks_and_goals

Pirates are a very special kind of politicians. They are mostly activists, or people that want activists as elected representatives in parliaments, city boards and alike.
For a movement to be valid all over the world and spread the same basic ideas I will personally say it is very important to get an early access to the resources that has been built around the world for 9 years now. The movement is still increasing in size and it is all because of those core ideas the movement as whole share.
Direct Democracy is maybe the most important sales argument. Basic Rights comes far up there as well. And Pirates understand the impact the Internet has on society in a modern world.

For your reference, the European Pirate Party Manifesto is here http://ppeu.net/wiki/doku.php?id=statutes:manifesto
It took Pirate Parties in Europe three years to agree on this, mostly because the original proposals were too specific in an ever changing world. That's what pirates are about. Analyse the world today and implement policies that fix things.

So in this context it is limited what a Pirate party does and do not. We do not at all construct organisations that are easy to pull into corruption. That's where the almost absolute transparency ideas come from.

I want go further for now, but I want to mention this excellent Pirate and former Member of Parliament in Iceland. Jon Thor Olafsson stepped down this Friday and here e explains how a pirate should conduct when elected icelandmag.visir.is/article/exclusive-interview-pirate-mp-resigned-parliament-mix-asphalt

He also wrote a book about the games we meet when in politics. I will recommend it as reading either you're a Pirate or not. The Game of Politics can be downloaded for free here http://piratetimes.net/the-game-of-politics-book-review/

Good luck with your start-up. Please keep us advised if there's anything the international community can do to maybe assist you with tips and tricks.

Kind Pirate Greetings
Anders

Dear Anders,

Thank you for this fantastic post. A lot of reading up coming up.

I believe that it does not make sense to form a Pirate Party without getting into politics - whether contesting elections soon or not. (Disclosure: I am a blogger who comments on socio-political affairs, so my view may be biased.)

Unfortunately, most of the members gravitating toward the idea are software programmers or general internet users, so there is some hesitation about getting into politics. I believe it is inevitable.

I agree with you about the core ideas being well.... core. I think we are going about it the wrong way - not to mention wasting a hell of a lot of time by trying to invent our own core. That said, we operate by consensus.

I can try and create a proposal for us to adopt the core goals of Pirate Parties as a whole as well as adopt a manifesto to get ideas for an action plan for us. I don't know how well it will be received, but I think you are dead right on this. I hope you share more opinions there.

@vidyut it is a search to find if there are organizations that agree with our basic principles. We may come up with zero results, we may find a few. When they don't agree with the principles, we will follow the same process to change our principles.

Even when an organization agrees with our principles, they don't want to abandon their organization or we don't want to abandon our organization. We have chosen different strategies and organizational structures that we feel are effective. We can still remain two organizations but join in each others activities and campaigns. There is no need to prove which method is effective. In time either may make good results, both could fails, both could succeed.

@praveenarimbrathod I would find it really difficult to present the powerpoint type presentation and ask for collaboration based on agreement with it. Half the document is membership. What do I explain why their agreement to our membership procedures is necessary to be able to collaborate?

If their method can be different, why would I need them to agree to something as juvenile as this in a formal document? "No one asked us how we think this world should be. We should no longer accept what we supposedly cannot change. Instead, we need to change what we cannot accept." There is nothing wrong about the lines. But seriously, what is the principle that the line is in the principles/constitution?

Why should a non member be expected to agree with "Why Indian Pirates?" at all if we are fine with them having their own method, which may not have an attitude like "So we are remaking this world the way we think it should be"? Many organizations do excellent change work engaging with the existing system constrictively. For that matter, even if they believed in changing what doesn't work, what is our qualification that they would agree with us changing it to what it should be as per us?

Anyway, I have said what I wanted to say, and detailing it further will not help.

@praveenarimbrathod someone who agrees with this document is not likely to take us to a better plane of existence any more than existing members who agreed with it will.

@vidyut I feel there is a scope, may be I'm wrong, but I still want to give it a try. What is there to lose anyway?

It is important to keep your Indian Pirate ideas please do not copy other Pirates it will be good to Discus this Fürther ATM we are observing, but do not want to interfere. Develop your own ideas first, take time to do this,

Then when Pirates of India are ready and willing we can take your ideas and maybe there will be something New that we can take up on a globale level.

@michaeljohnsinclai well, I think you should read the document. :(

http://pirates.org.in/constitution/

It has had few, if any changes over the years.

Also, adapting is not necessarily copying. We can add what we find missing, take out what is not applicable/necessary, etc but having a coherent framework document to begin with seems to be a good way of getting out of 4 years of stagnation creating our identity across various platforms.

I don't intend to be whiny, but we are getting so tangled up in who we are, that there is little progress toward any goal. I think it is fair to say that anyone joining a Pirate Party in India is because they learn of the foreign pirate parties (since we are barely known at all) and want that for India - which does imply that the basic goals are in alignment with everyone who landed up in the group, or near everyone. I don't understand why one yes/no vote can't dump them all into our goals. It is almost like we are studiously avoiding them - which is absurd if we want to form a Pirate Party.

I think I am repeating myself too much. I'll shut up for a bit.

@vidyut the reason why a small number of people had to sit together and form constitutions is the limitation of technology. Now that when every member who wish to participate can chip in, I don't see a reason to not let people participate. You can look around and see many organizations that have good constitutions and reach, but how many members really understand it? The whole point of discontinuing Pirate Party name was to take time to get things in order, a realization that we are not ready.

I don't understand this constitution either. :p

The way I look at it, our document is a confused mini ramble. We have mixed opinions, membership, goals and what not into one powerpoint-like thingy. For clarity of our own vision and for members to understand, documents for membership rules, constitution, goals, etc should be different. Among these, "goals" in particular will be really, really similar to other pirate parties - is that not why we are a pirate movement? Because we gravitated to them? I don't understand the insistence on calling ourselves pirates, but not accepting goals that basically define the pirate identity. That is like saying i'm a software coder, but I don't code software.

Do we not call ourselves pirates because we have very specific views with regard to digital rights, direct democracy, revision of IP laws, etc? Why not detail that upfront in our documents then?

@vidyut we are here to build that clarity together. We are not presenting a final document that they have to just click I agree to. We are asking people to join in bring clarity. If it is unclear it means we don't have that clarity. Copy pasting it won't bring that clarity. Also we are not going to get ready made pirates to join us. Each idea will need a debate on its own for people to understand.

We are not trained constitutionalists, so to expect to create a concrete constitution right away is preposterous. But it is important to start working on a draft constitution as it gives us a direction, and over a period of time we can overcome our limitations, correct mistakes, build consensus and carve out a final document which can serve as a base for the movement.
And a great place to start will be the 'Directive principles of the state policies' of Indian constitution. It has a vision of welfare state and the fact that we derives our vision document from the Indian constitution gives us a strong case for recognition in our public.

Open discuion of a Themen is better than just involving Pirates alone.

While discussing on our xmpp chat room/conference, @arjun wanted us to focus on some activities like Diaspora Yatra. I suggested we go and meet activist groups around the country, stay with them, involve in their activities.

We'll (me, @fayadfami and @arjun confirmed) be planning this on a audio call at https://meet.jit.si/piratesin

We'll post updates here. You can join us live or share your thoughts here.

Since Arjun in currently in Denmark, we are planning this before 8.30 am IST or after 01.30 am IST.

Jan 19, 01:45 am IST.

Yesterday we could not meet, we'll be meeting at https://meet.jit.si/piratesin in about 40 minutes from now.

Join in, if you can make it.

@arjun @fayadfami @vik

We had a voip conference at 01.45 am joined by me, @praveenarimbrathod @arjun @vik.

We discussed about meetups and also meeting like minded people from different parts to learn how they work and share our ideas.

A friend and activist from Wayanad will be happy to welcome and work with us. This will be an oppurtunity to directly involve in issues that affect us in grass root levels.

So the best thing about this plan is that Wayanad is close by to fossmeet an annual event on free software held in NIT Calicut. We can attend the conference and also get to travel across Wayanad. A pirate journey :)

Another interesting place that came up in the discussion was Lokayat. They are based in Pune and @praveenarimbrathod has worked along with them before. They actively involve in issues that affect us through their campaigns. This is a second place that we can try to visit.

Time and date can be discussed in our conference room (piratesin@conference.diasp.in). We have some interesting discussions there. Or in this thread.

Let's discuss our availability on fossmeet and later for wayanad. I am hoping to join, what about you guys ?

We also planned on testing mumble for our conferences to compare with Jitsi. It can be tested on pod.pxq.in.

i am definitely late here.....
so far i read, its a critical and healthy discussion.

it seems that many of being activists were already known and have good contact with many civil societies, and tech communities.

as usual... PP India movement shall start mailing the mailing list of every community (which are serious in their actions and functioning).

organize a conference/un-conference, to make people attend ( i honestly did not know whether it is attempted), pertaining to prioritized issue in hand. This will create partisan and non-partisan relationship, in a deeper level.

Presence of PP is known to activists, policy researchers, constitutional researchers, like us - who definitely have interest in socio-economy, political economy and complex networks.

So, spreading the present apart from "like minded people", involves better rational and clear communication through mass media. I believe, many of us are present in those media. i.e., start posting special video logs and discussion audio/video logs, which i hope will create an avalanche effect.

If, these are attempted earlier.... please forgive me.... as i am being passive so far...