@akhileshjamdar what do you think? I think it seriously dilutes our message about privacy unlike twitter or youtube (they are also bad, but facebook is far worse). If there is a consensus, we can still shut it down. I think its important to have a committed group rather than just large number of 'likes' on facebook.

@karthikeyanak @praveenarimbrathod we aren't opposing facebook blindly, are we? we should make a statement on why we oppose facebook based on their privacy-invading policies. imo if our presence on fb is not against what we include in that statement then we don't need to shut our fb page down. instead if we are real serious against fb on all terms then we should ensure better communication on diaspora and loomio. this is what i think.

@praveenarimbrathod You are right, this was actually a bad idea. By existing on facebook we make facebook a central hub for diluted information and also increase activity on facebook. We should rather avoid it and work towards making things like diasp.in and other free social networks more attractive. I don't think we can support facebook in any way(including by joining it). But I would say the same about twitter as well.

Keep the Facebook site and leave a information behind declaring that pirates denounce Facebook.

I know we are all not very fond of the mainstream social media sites for a range of reasons, some of them are mentioned above in the discussion above. But if you want to reach the masses, you'll NEED them. How else are you going to spread pirate ideas? By foot, walking door to door? Or hold meetups? Or write articles?..
Even if we did all the above, do you really think you are going to be able to convince people who've never heard of Pirate ideas to join a new site like diaspora just to follow us? Really?

On one hand we are creating a FAQ page for our website and trying to build a constitution with simple wordings so it's easy for new people to understand and on the other you are making it all the more difficult for them to be able to follow you.

Keep diaspora, fb, twitter and youtube. Keep writing about diaspora - maybe even provide a link to it in the description box. But if you delete them you will simply not be able to reach the masses - as simple as that.

1) Campaigning on foot takes A LOT of time and energy and i dont think any of us could even do it. (you cover hardly 15 people in anhour- hardly 15!)
2) even if you did write articles and make videos , how are you going to share it to the masses?
3) Meetups and speeches - all the very best.

My comment above might come across as a rude one but I think we need a reality check.

As much as we hate mainstream social media, it's not a question of whether our principles align with it or no- we simply NEED them.
I know it's sad. And no I haven't given up - it's just that as of today, diaspora is no match to Twitter or Facebook. If there are better ways to reach the masses do share them here.

I agree with @michaeljohnsinclai 's comment above. Be on Facebook... Write about diaspora etc etc..

@arjun what would be your response when people say this to you?

Pirates will take a 100 years to become influential, you should rather join an existing party like AAP instead.

There are many ways to reach people other than facebook. And it will be an organic growth, ie, people who we reach directly can help us reach more people and the reach will also increase with our size. I think its important to stick to our principles rather than choosing what is convenient.

@ambadyanands @vishnum @sruthi can one of you post a link to this discussion on facebook and ask feedback from the people who are using facebook now?

@praveenarimbrathod
"loomio.org (https://codema.in/g/7qmru1SG/indian-pirates) is our primary communication platform (run by a worker owned cooperative, using Free Software, funded by people directly) and you should migrate to decentralized services like diaspora to enjoy:

• privacy,
• freedom from censorship,
• independence from corporate control and
• self-reliance in communication technology and infrastructure for a country like India.

They can join diasp.in, which is run by Indian Pirates and hosted in India or choose from one of the pods listed at podupti.me" //it'll be better if you can start a thread with this content in the Statements group (which will help people to see all the discussions on our Statements in one place) and we can add more details to it. once the Statement is ready we can go for the fb link removal.

@praveenarimbrathod I already gave people this answer while campaigning with you if you remember... "Direct democracy could take a 100 years but if Noone takes the effort to initiate this it won't happen for sure. Someone has to initiate it. Even if it takes a 100 years it's ok. I'd like to add.. The fight for freedom took more than a century to win. It happened cuz someone somewhere stood up for it. If Noone had, we would still be slaves. So it's ok if it takes a 100 yearsfor a direct democracy but let us initiate it at least "

I don't disagree with the fact that Facebook is completely against all what we stand for. I myself am not on it. But quite frankly right now, except you and vidyut and maybe one or two others to the max, noone else takes the effort and even if they do its not enough.

Why don't you create a proposal now and see how many people out of the 102 members actually would wanna volunteer to spread Pirates ideas the organic way ad you say. You won't get more than 4 votes. I think it's safe to say that noone wants to get their hands dirty.

Does being on Facebook go against what we stand for? - - yes.

But then I'd give you this example - if you want to address a crowd in a particular area you would go to THAT area and deliver a speech right? You wouldn't expect them to come to your area and listen to you would you? Especially when Noone has even heard about you?

We did the same in our political campaigns right? We met people, spoke to them about us and directed them towards our social media sites so that they could follow us right? Why?.. Cuz its convenient for THEM to follow us.

Let me reiterate.. Yes, it does feel wrong to be on Facebook but quite frankly right now we got Noone except you and one or two others would actually take the effort to do it the way you want them to.

@arjun by your own analogy, "people are already in a mainstream party, very few are in AAP or willing to join you. Wouldn't it be better to join an existing party and try to change their policies. People already in those parties will not come to you, but you habe to go to them." What do you say?

Also what percentage of users willing to do on the ground campaigns will sway your view? If 10% of us are willing to focus on organic growth, would you agree to shut down facebook page?

Also when we do campaigns on the ground, if its significant, media will pick up and that will also take us to larger sections of people. Also those who personally chose to be on facebook can continue using their personal accounts to promote pirate ideas.

For example, when we did pirate cycling, many news papers covered it and we were interviewed by a tv channel, their youtube channel still carries that interview.

I believe the moral burden of having to explain our presence in facebook is not worth the benefits.

• lot of people will definitely ask on your face when you talk to them,

• some may not ask but our message will not have much effect when they see what we do is not really aligned with what we say.

• even if they don't feel this way, it will make you defensive because you'll be thinking about this defense.

I have personally experienced this with regards to proprietary software. I was working on an HP-UX project in Chicago. I attended one meeting of Chicago lug and met an Indian guy. We went out to an Indian restaurant for dinner. I was talking about Free Software and he asked me what platform I'm working with. When I said HP-UX, he challenged me on it, see you talk about Free Software, but you need proprietary software to live on. I could not answer. From that point, untill I left that project, I could not honestly talk about Free Software. When I realized I will be getting more proprietary projects (Oracle, HP-UX), I left HP (and US) to join Red Hat.

When people see our actions are not matching with our words, no one will take us seriously, especially those who care about privary. That number may be small, but they are the ones that are likely join us. So if we turn away two passionate privacy advocates for 100 facebook likes which may not mean anything to them, I say we are losing big.

If the democratic outcome for Indian Pirates is to go the hard way then make a campaign about it ,
build a count down on all these sites till day xy, Then switch to other things. lots of other Pirates do not use these channels out of principles, maybe collect all other possibilities first.

@praveenarimbrathod it's not about "swaying" my view. I'm merely stating that yes, it does go against out principles but if you want to reach the masses you'll need them. Either way, the percentage of users who are willing to do ground campaign is close to zero right now.

I understand your Hp example and I would've ask you the same too.

"I believe the moral burden of having to explain our presence in facebook is not worth the benefits."---
But tell me something, did you ask each one of the 102 members if they were still on Facebook or Twitter when they joined Indian Pirates? When he/she spreads pirate ideas on Facebook from their personal accounts won't people ask the same question(morally) ?
.. I'm sure most of us here use some kind of mainstream social media. Do we judge them too?

Also.. like someone mentioned earlier, if we do decide to quit mainstream social media it better be now than later. No point amassing a 1000 Likes or followers and then quitting it- would be unfair to those following us there.

Just read Michael's comment and it makes sense. Those opposing Facebook come up with a proper plan as to how else you are planning to spread pirate ideas - concrete ones.. And let's act on it. I'd join you too.

Yes, when they spread pirate ideas from their accounts, it becomes their moral responsibility. They have to answer that individually and respond, it will not be considered opinion of Indian Pirates. If you see Article 2: Rights, Section 5 in our constitution,

http://pirates.org.in/constitution/#/7

"Section 7: Policies are not binding to members and they have to promote only policies they agree with."

"Section 9: Can campaign against collective's policy."

They can not only continue to use facebook, but campaign against Indian Pirates. If they convince the rest of us to be on facebook, we may even change our policy. We don't want anyone blindly follow our policies, only if they are convinced they have to follow it.

We did Diaspora Yatra and Pirate Cycling. I'm willing to continue it. We are discussing phase 2 here https://codema.in/d/59Jl3bds/private-messaging-focused-phase-2 this can include campaigns like phase 1 to new campuses.

I posted this on my diaspora stream today https://poddery.com/posts/2450872 and got this link http://rys.io/en/119

"One of the main points I tend to quarrel with the "P3" (as Polish Pirates choose to call themselves) is a certain popular social media portal. I can understand, of course, the need to reach out to people wherever they are (and for the most part they indeed tend to be on Failbook). I do feel, however, that the proper relationship (if any) between P3 and FB should be one getting people off of FB to P3, not advertising FB on P3's website...

Once somebody is already on your website, dear Pirates, why oh why do you see it the right thing to do to get them back to the portal that is in the midst of most of the issues Pirates officially get themselves involved in (like privacy, surveillance, censorship and enacting walls — pun not intended — within Internet, by privatisation of this once-free and open area for ingenuity, art and entrepreneurship)?"

I think we could start with removing the link to Facebook page from our website if everyone agrees while we continue to discuss about how we use facebook.

Also make a clear statement on the facebook page that

"loomio.org (https://codema.in/g/7qmru1SG/indian-pirates) is our primary communication platform (run by a worker owned cooperative, using Free Software, funded by people directly) and you should migrate to decentralized services like diaspora to enjoy

• privacy,
• freedom from censorship,
• independence from corporate control and
• self-reliance in communication technology and infrastructure for a country like India

They can join diasp.in, which is run by Indian Pirates and hosted in India or choose from one of the pods listed at podupti.me"

@ambadyanands @arjun , do you agree to these two proposals?

I agree with Michał "rysiek" Woźniak ( diaspora ) who says

keep the page as a way of reaching out to people that are on Facebook, but keep it clearly a secondary channel.

I guess even FSMK which used to be a crazy FB discussion channel even started moving the discussion else where to Discourse forum hosted on their webpage.

Maybe a Nice picture :star: would help . The pic should have a graphical illustration telling NO to FB loudly and clearly and ask the interested people to move to Diaspora or Loomio.

@praveenarimbrathod yeah done..

@praveenarimbrathod yeah done..

@ambadyanands I have started a draft statement here https://codema.in/d/FXAakoQw feel free to suggest changes.

@spechide read the proposal text, this is not a vote to delete facebook page, but only to remove link from our website.

@spechide can you confirm if you really want to keep the link to facebook page on our site?

i wanted to change my vote but unfortunately the proposal is closed. if it's okay, this comment can be considered as my "I agree" vote!

I suggest everyone read http://www.salimvirani.com/facebook/ and consider the harm facebook does to all who are there.

@arjun this proposal is not to remove twitter, but just post the content first in diaspora, and post diaspora link on twitter. This way we can still reach out to people on twitter, but can promote decentralized replacements with every post.

One more story on facebook's power, reach an control How Facebook's tentacles reach further than you think - BBC News http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39947942

I think it would be a good idea to post why we are deleting the page and encouraging everyone to quit before we delete the page (say keep posting this for a week and delete).

since we already reached consensus on deleting our facebook page a long time ago, the link to the same from the official site has been removed now.