Add to basic principles: Annihilation of Caste

"The real method of breaking up the Caste System was... to destroy the religious notions upon which caste is founded" - Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. We are committed to Ambedkar's dream of annihilation of caste.
Malayalam: "ജാതിവ്യവസ്ഥ തകർക്കാനുള്ള ശരിയായ വഴി ജാതി സൃഷ്ടിക്കാനുപയോഗിച്ച മതത്തിന്റെ ആശയങ്ങൾ തകർക്കുക എന്നതാണ്". ഡോ. ബി. ആർ. അംബേദ്കർ. ജാതി ഇല്ലാതാക്കാനുള്ള അംബേദ്കറുടെ സ്വപ്നം യാഥാർത്ഥ്യമാക്കാൻ ഞങ്ങൾ നിലകൊള്ളുന്നു.
Pirate Vik Mon 17 May 2021 9:41AM
I think this is exactly the approach that works

Pirate Praveen Mon 17 May 2021 11:32AM
Would you agree if you have to educate people bullying you or discriminating you personally instead of the rights guaranteed to you by law? For example if you re forced to work 14 hours a day in a software company and you are in a difficult position to find another job, would you want us to go and educate your employer that they should not do this? Like argue with them that for productivity over work is harmful for their profits itself etc? and ask you to continue to suffer if we fail to convince? So if the religious people refuse, the community has to accept discrimination? I don't think this approach can replace the guarantee of rights. They may be doing this as compromise and not the best choice. They may be doing this along with their fight for legal rights, not replacing the legal fights. There is a difference between what we really want and what we can achieve right now. Some struggles are there not because we can win, but simply because that is the right thing to do even if we fail to achieve it. The question here is not what we can achieve, but what we think is the right thing (also this is basic principles, not manifesto).

Akshay Mon 17 May 2021 11:39AM
For decades atheists have struggled to unequivocally state that human beings can act morally if religion is destroyed. Knowing human beings, I (as an atheist) am also unsure if human beings can act morally without the framework of religion. I do not believe that most human beings are capable of behaving rationally. The question then becomes, do you wait for the long and risky process of replacing religions that might last generations and not produce any result. Or do you work with them to eliminate the suffering as soon as possible.

Pirate Praveen Mon 17 May 2021 11:42AM
Are you saying it is binary choice here? Either religion is acceptes as such or it has to be destroyed? There is no place for rejecting religious notions that affects people's rights?

Akshay Mon 17 May 2021 11:43AM
There is indeed that space. I'm all in favor of accepting religions as unavoidable human tendency and working to make religions better.

Pirate Praveen Mon 17 May 2021 11:47AM
But law should not interfere to uphold rights?
Pirate Vik Mon 17 May 2021 11:47AM
Yes and I think the right thing here to do is work with progressives and use language that is accurate and sufficiently descriptive of the nuances that exist. It's taken you multiple paragraphs to state the case, the single sentence in the proposal, for me, is woefully inadequate as a statement to align with.

Akshay Mon 17 May 2021 12:00PM
Law needs to be one of the tools in an array of tools.
Pirate Vik Tue 18 May 2021 11:02AM
Isn't the real method of breaking up the caste system to properly enforce the laws that make caste discrimination illegal? If the legislation is inadequate then we can enhance it and make it more punative. There are many practical steps that we can take time to define, simply copy pasting this broad statement falls way short of the mark of where we should aspire to be on the topic of caste.

Pirate Bady Tue 18 May 2021 8:11PM
i believe we have a common ground that we all oppose inequality and discrimination. so let's try to reach a consensus. would you be fine with the following proposal?
We recognize caste based discrimination as a deadly disease our nation is still facing and hence are obliged to work towards eliminating the same by means of promoting necessary education and social awareness along with establishing and enforcing anti-discriminatory laws.
i'll wait for a couple of days before starting a new proposal in order to make it open for suggestions. please note that the proposal is to add this to the basic principles and not manifesto, which means it is more about what we believe in and what direction we're heading to.
Pirate Vik Wed 19 May 2021 6:28AM
I would support that addition

Poll Created Sat 22 May 2021 10:24AM
Constitution amendment: Add the following to basic principles Closed Mon 21 Jun 2021 6:00PM
We can add this to the constitution
We recognize caste based discrimination as a deadly disease our nation is still facing and hence are obliged to work towards eliminating the same by means of promoting necessary education and social awareness along with establishing and enforcing anti-discriminatory laws. We recognize and will work to reduce the existing opportunity gap resulted from systemic oppression over the past hundreds of years which is still being continued.
Malayalam: ജാതി അടിസ്ഥാനത്തിലുള്ള വിവേചനം നമ്മുടെ രാജ്യം ഇപ്പോഴും നേരിട്ടുകൊണ്ടിരിക്കുന്ന ഒരു മാരകരോഗമാണ്. ആയതിനാല് അത്തരം വിവേചനം ഇല്ലാതാക്കുന്നതിനായി തക്കതായ സാമൂഹിക അവബോധവും വിദ്യാഭ്യാസവും ഉറപ്പുവരുത്തുന്നതിനും ഒപ്പം തന്നെ വിവേചനത്തിന് എതിരായുള്ള നിയമങ്ങള് ശക്തമായി നടപ്പിലാക്കുന്നതിനും ഞങ്ങള് പ്രതിജ്ഞാബദ്ധരാണ്. നൂറുകണക്കിന് വർഷങ്ങളായി തുടര്ന്നുകൊണ്ടിരിക്കുന്ന വ്യവസ്ഥാപിത അടിച്ചമർത്തൽ മൂലം ഉണ്ടായ അവസരവിടവ് ഞങ്ങള് മനസ്സിലാക്കുകയും അത് കുറയ്ക്കുന്നതിനായി പ്രയത്നിക്കുകയും ചെയ്യും.
Update on 23/05/2021 - Added suggestion by @Kannan V M: "We recognize and will work to reduce the existing opportunity gap resulted from systemic oppression over the past hundreds of years which is still being continued."
Update on 24/05/2021 - Added Malayalam translation.
Update on 05/06/2021 - Extended the voting date to 21/06/2021 as we have another proposal on the similar lines.
Results
Results | Option | % of points | Voters | |
---|---|---|---|---|
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Agree | 100.0% | 3 |
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Abstain | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Disagree | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Block | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Undecided | 0% | 183 |
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3 of 186 people have participated (1%)

Pirate Praveen
Sun 23 May 2021 8:41AM
I think it fall short of talking about the root cause and instead treating symptoms. But better than nothing.

Kannan V M Sat 22 May 2021 12:33PM
@Pirate Bady I think we should also mention that we recognize and will work to reduce the existing opportunity gap resulted from systemic oppression over the past hundreds of years and still being continued.

Pirate Bady Sun 23 May 2021 8:37AM
@Kannan V M added your suggestion

Pirate Praveen Sun 23 May 2021 11:54AM
@Pirate Bady can you add this translation in the proposal? (Review it too) ജാതി അടിസ്ഥാനത്തിലുള്ള വിവേചനം നമ്മുടെ രാജ്യം നേരിടുന്ന മാരകരോഗമാണ്. അതുകൊണ്ട് തന്നെ ഞങ്ങൾ സാമൂഹിക അവബോധവും വിദ്യാഭ്യാസവും വഴിയും കൂടെ വിവേചനത്തിന് എതിരായുള്ള നിയമങ്ങൾ ശക്തമായി നടപ്പിലാക്കിയും ഇത് ഇല്ലാതാക്കാനുള്ള പ്രയത്നം ചെയ്യും. നൂറുകണക്കിന് വർഷങ്ങളിലുടെ ഇപ്പോഴും തുടരുന്ന വ്യവസ്ഥാപിത അടിച്ചമർത്തൽ കാരണം വന്ന അവസര വിടവ് ഞങ്ങൾ മനസ്സിലാക്കുകയും അത് കുറക്കാൻ ഞങ്ങൾ പ്രയത്നിക്കുകയും ചെയ്യും.

Pirate Bady Sun 23 May 2021 5:34PM
ജാതി അടിസ്ഥാനത്തിലുള്ള വിവേചനം നമ്മുടെ രാജ്യം ഇപ്പോഴും നേരിട്ടുകൊണ്ടിരിക്കുന്ന ഒരു മാരകരോഗമാണ്. ആയതിനാല് അത്തരം വിവേചനം ഇല്ലാതാക്കുന്നതിനായി തക്കതായ സാമൂഹിക അവബോധവും വിദ്യാഭ്യാസവും ഉറപ്പുവരുത്തുന്നതിനും ഒപ്പം തന്നെ വിവേചനത്തിന് എതിരായുള്ള നിയമങ്ങള് ശക്തമായി നടപ്പിലാക്കുന്നതിനും ഞങ്ങള് പ്രതിജ്ഞാബദ്ധരാണ്. നൂറുകണക്കിന് വർഷങ്ങളായി തുടര്ന്നുകൊണ്ടിരിക്കുന്ന വ്യവസ്ഥാപിത അടിച്ചമർത്തൽ മൂലം ഉണ്ടായ അവസരവിടവ് ഞങ്ങള് മനസ്സിലാക്കുകയും അത് കുറയ്ക്കുന്നതിനായി പ്രയത്നിക്കുകയും ചെയ്യും.
കുറച്ചു മാറ്റങ്ങള് വരുത്തി, ഇപ്പോള് എങ്ങനെയുണ്ട്? ഇങ്ങനെ മതിയോ?

Pirate Praveen Sun 23 May 2021 7:01PM
Looks good.

Pirate Bady Mon 24 May 2021 6:44AM
added it to the proposal

Pirate Praveen Mon 24 May 2021 11:56AM
@Kannan V M do you think caste evolved naturally and there is no religious basis for caste? Do you think there is no definition of caste in any religious books? @Pirate Vik it is very likely British modified Manusmriti for their divide and rule policy, but do you think caste was invented by Brirish and there was no discrimination or untouchability before British rule in those scattered kingdoms now part of India ?

Pirate Praveen Mon 24 May 2021 5:46PM
This is happening today https://m.thewire.in/article/rights/west-bengal-dom-cremate-covid-19-victims-casteist-mentality
Pirate Vik Mon 24 May 2021 6:35PM
@Pirate Praveen before British Rule it was the Mughal Empire and their rules. Prior to that there was still discrimination, untouchability and of course slavery. My disagreement with the statement is that the language is inadequate as the topic is complex.

Pirate Praveen Mon 31 May 2021 10:15AM
"The existence of caste and untouchability, have throughout the ages been recorded by people who were traveling into the subcontinent and people who have been resisting the structure. Fa Xian, the Chinese monk, in 4th century C.E details the prevalence of caste and untouchability as a subcontinental reality. Al-Beruni, the middle eastern historian, in the 11th century C.E compiled comprehensive sociology, Tarikh-al-Hind, that includes extensive descriptions of varna-jāti systems. The Bhakthi saints of the 11th-15th centuries C.E; Sant Guru Ravidass, Kabir, Tukaram, Peero Premam, Chokamela, Soyrabai; were all Dalit-Bahujan anti-caste revolutionaries who wrote extensive literature of the existence of caste and how to fight it. A whole religion of Sikhism was even founded on Guru Nanak’s proclamation of revolution against caste and untouchability." Just adding this here for reference https://medium.com/@Bahujan_Power/the-dalit-bahujan-guide-to-understanding-caste-in-hindu-scripture-417db027fce6

Poll Created Mon 31 May 2021 1:15PM
Constituion Amendment: Add to basic principles: Annihilation of Caste Closed Mon 28 Jun 2021 1:00PM
We can add this to constitution
Many narratives of caste inform you that varnas were merely occupational guilds, that they forged a well-functioning society, how only jāti, as classes within the varna structure, were restricted by birth and so on.
These blurred understandings of caste, are undoubtedly, those of someone looking at a structure of social inequality from the top, down. Those with sovereignty in a system of oppression can think of that system as stabilizing, but those condemned to the slavery of the system — will view it for what it is — exploitative and destabilizing.
It is really time that people begin seeing that, deconstructing some of these ideas through the combined lens of Bahujan lived-experience and scholarship, is the most relevant way to understand the structure and history of social inequality in the subcontinent.
While Dalit and Adivasis are some of the most vulnerable communities in a caste society, the majority of the people of the subcontinent are caste-bound and ruled by “upper”-caste minorities. The term Bahujan refers to present day Scheduled Castes (Dalits), Scheduled Tribes (Adivasis/indigenous) and Shudra (peasant) castes — cutting across religion, ethnicities and geographies.
The Purusha Suktha, the 90th hymn in the 10th Book of the Rig Veda, presents a cosmogony that describes the creation of man. From the head of a primeval God, arose the Brahmans (priests, scholars), from the arms, Kshatriya (kings, warriors), the thighs, Vaishya (merchants, cultivators) and the feet, Shudra (servants, slaves). While this visioning for society was not yet caste, it does implicitly and divinely ordain genesis directly into a compartments of graded inequality. It is very important to note that there is no neutrality in such a design. In other places throughout the texts and even today in most of modern South Asia, the head has always been considered superior and the feet lowly, ritually unclean and polluting.
A quote from the Chandogya Upanishad, which records deep contempt for Chandalas (outcastes/Dalits)
“Now, people of good conduct can expect to quickly attain a pleasant birth, like that of a Brahmin, the Kshatriya, or the Vaishya. But people of evil conduct can expect to enter a foul womb, like that of a dog, a pig, or a Chandala.”
We assert that both the Shrutis and the Smritis bear condemnable caste advocacy. It is emphasized that the dharmic duty of Brahmans was to be scholars, Kshatriyas, warriors and Vaishyas to be farmers and merchants. In dealing with the Shudras, however, Manu and his colleagues are especially cruel.
“But a Shudra, whether bought or not bought (by the Brahmin) may be compelled to practice servitude, for that Shudra was created by the self-existent merely for the service of the Brahmin. Even if freed by his master, the Shudra is not released from servitude; for this (servitude) is innate in him; who then can take it from him.”
Education, reading, writing and academic pursuits were off-limits to Shudras and the slightest attempts at access to knowledge were severely punishable.
“Now if he (a Shudra) listens intentionally to (a recitation of) the Veda, his ears shall be filled with (molten) tin or lac. If he recites (Vedic texts), his tongue shall be cut out. If he remembers them, his body shall be split in twain”
It is crucial to note that, in a varna society, penalties for “criminal” activities are meted out not proportional to the offense committed but specific to your location in the varna order.
“A Brahmin may take possession of the goods of a Shudra with perfect peace of mind, for, since nothing at all belongs to this Shudra as his own, he is one whose property may be taken away by his master.”
“Indeed, an accumulation of wealth should not be made by a Shudra even if he is able to do so, for the sight of mere possession of wealth by a Shudra injures the Brahmin.”
The Caste Structure was/is not Fluid. Why anyone would believe, themselves and their loved ones, to be most suited to peasantry and slave labor? If everyone had the choice, wouldn’t they have all chosen the seemingly respectable livelihoods of Brahmins and “upper”- castes? It is neither fulfilling nor dignifying to be bonded to a landlord, to be a village servant, to be cleaning up shit or disposing of rotting animal carcasses.
If mobility between varnas was in fact the norm, one must wonder why so much painstaking effort has then been put in by the authors of several Brahminical scriptures to legislate permanent social inequality between varnas, to condemn punish inter-varna relationships and to bastardize and excommunicate the offspring from such unions.
“On having intercourse with Chandala women, on eating their food or receiving presents from them, a Brahmin unwittingly falls; but if he does so wittingly, he comes to an equality with them.”
Another idea that contradicts the claims of a fluid caste structure is the Brahmanical belief of karma that states that the actions of your past life result in your jāti and fate in the present one. This is also profoundly offensive to Bahujans. It criminalizes people victimized by varna, celebrates oppressor varnas and accrues further social capital for them while freeing them from accountability for their actions.
None of these concepts indicate mobility. They reflect what we see in everyday life. Caste is tenaciously locked down by social and religious dictates.
The existence of caste and untouchability, have throughout the ages been recorded by people who were traveling into the subcontinent and people who have been resisting the structure. Fa Xian, the Chinese monk, in 4th century C.E details the prevalence of caste and untouchability as a subcontinental reality. Al-Beruni, the middle eastern historian, in the 11th century C.E compiled comprehensive sociology, Tarikh-al-Hind, that includes extensive descriptions of varna-jāti systems. The Bhakthi saints of the 11th-15th centuries C.E; Sant Guru Ravidass, Kabir, Tukaram, Peero Premam, Chokamela, Soyrabai; were all Dalit-Bahujan anti-caste revolutionaries who wrote extensive literature of the existence of caste and how to fight it. A whole religion of Sikhism was even founded on Guru Nanak’s proclamation of revolution against caste and untouchability and even then, Sikhs subsequently adopted and practice caste.
Confronting the Truth is the First Step
In order to confront the dark realities of caste, we need to first accept its roots in the fundamentally anti-social nature of Brahminism.
Adapted from: https://medium.com/@Bahujan_Power/the-dalit-bahujan-guide-to-understanding-caste-in-hindu-scripture-417db027fce6
20 June 21: Include suggestion from @Pirate Vik
"A whole religion of Sikhism was even founded on Guru Nanak’s proclamation of revolution against caste and untouchability and even then, Sikhs subsequently adopted and practice caste."
Results
Results | Option | % of points | Voters | |
---|---|---|---|---|
|
Agree | 100.0% | 6 |
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Abstain | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Disagree | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Block | 0.0% | 0 | ||
Undecided | 0% | 180 |
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6 of 186 people have participated (3%)

Akshay
Mon 7 Jun 2021 12:40PM
This is an objective and detailed description of caste that can help.
Pirate Vik Sat 12 Jun 2021 4:31PM
@Pirate Praveen extremely compelling, i'm almost there with you. I would support this with one modification. Where you say "A whole religion of Sikhism was even founded on Guru Nanak’s proclamation of revolution against caste and untouchability." would you be prepared to change that too "A whole religion of Sikhism was even founded on Guru Nanak’s proclamation of revolution against caste and untouchability and even then, Sikhs subsequently adopted and practice caste"
Pirate Vik Sat 12 Jun 2021 4:33PM

Pirate Praveen Sun 20 Jun 2021 1:01PM
I made that change.

Pirate Praveen Mon 21 Jun 2021 6:48PM
@Kannan V M what do you think about the current proposal?
Akshay · Mon 17 May 2021 5:09AM
I just came across an event organized by Aneka India in which they're working with faith leaders (pastors, acharyas) to make inclusion of LGBTIQ+ a reality within the framework of religion by relying on progressive trends within religion.