What is our position on the use of the death penalty?

Thank you @vik. I am convinced. Like I said, I would prefer even a lack of punishment. There is a need to separate justice from revenge.

There are ways miscarriage of justice can be prevented and there is miscarriage of justice in all sorts of punishments. I am merely making points I find somewhat unique to how I think to add to the thought flow.

I'd be happy if the death penalty were done away with. I am merely saying that I accept there are reasons to accept it under unique circumstances. I think there is an urgent need to make the law equal for people who are supposedly equal before it. When the law is not equal, then the death penalty actually becomes a weapon of communal hate - which in my view is even more dangerous than the death penalty alone - a state with laws perverted against some citizens and in favor of others is what we have right now.

Interestingly Pope Francis is addressing the US Congress today on this topic.

"Pope calls on Congress to help abolish the death penalty

The pontiff’s speech continues to address many of what in ordinary circumstances would be considered “third rails” in American politics. Now, he sets his sights on the death penalty.

“The Golden Rule” - “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, from Matthew chapter 7, verse 12 - “also reminds us of our responsibility to protect and defend human life at every stage of its development,” he says."

This guy managed to save his neck with only 3 days to go:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/02/missouri-governor-death-row-inmate-execution

Some more people who weren’t so lucky, they we're killed before later being found innocent:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmood_Hussein_Mattan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bentley_case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Tafero

@rajudvindane @gounder @abhijithb @akshay @arjun looking for some more views on this - what do you guys say?

I certainly don't believe in 'eye for an eye'. But I have no idea how to think about issues like this which are full of complications of culture, psychology, psychopathology, etc.

same here ..i get in a fix when im asked about stuff like this.. Cuz im not really sure .. my question is , what is the alternative? 'An eye for an eye' - I do not stand by it as well.. I also feel that the death penalty is no terror deterrent.. but I doubt if I'd feel the same way if it were to affect me.. for instance, how do you convince a person who has lost his family to a murderer that the best way to resolve the issue would be to simply put the perpetrator behind bars for a very long time? ..

@arjun there are two different things here. One getting convinced yourself and convincing others. You don't have to accept only things that you can convince others. Then we can never change anything. Also it is ignoring your own capacity to think and decide yourself.

But you see, here, the very choice of our position depends on what works for the society.

@akshay changing society is a an after effect of more people getting convinced.

Considering others is different from using others as an excuse. Do we stop using internet till everyone in the society has internet?

Here, let me explain the circularity.

Why do we have punishments? To ensure social justice, to deter criminals, to ensure safety of everyone.
Is death penalty a good punishment?
Does it ensure social justice? What's social justice?
Does it deter criminals? How on earth can I figure this out?
Does it ensure anyone's safety? Does anything ensure anyone's safety?

How am I supposed to know what I'm supposed to be convinced about?

@akshay asking these questions are a good start. Now try to find answers to these questions and ask more questions when you are not clear. It may take time to get answer to some questions, but don't give up asking and finding answers.

What are your own answers to these questions?

@praveenarimbrathod "One getting convinced yourself and convincing others. You don’t have to accept only things that you can convince others. Then we can never change anything. Also it is ignoring your own capacity to think and decide yourself." - I dint really understand what you were trying to say..

Update: okay, I think I get what you were trying to say there.. Well.. Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the death penalty.. I'm just confused.. I guess it's cuz I've never really had such al conversation with anyone about this before.. Nor have I read much about it..

@arjun the entire society is so much into revenge than justice (just look at all the Indian movies), so forming our own opinions based on how we can convince others is not the right approach. Indeed, we have to find ways to convince others, but that should not be a factor in deciding our own opinions. Once we are clear about something ourselves, then we can find ways to convince others.

No one is born a murderer or a terrorist or rapist, unlike most politicians and religions want us to believe. An child growing up in US or UK to Indian parents will have values of his surroundings. If the same child were to be bought up in India, they would be a totally different person.

So society as a whole is responsible for murders, terrorists, rapists etc. About punishments, those are to stop further harm. When people are angry and fighting, last thing they would be thinking is punishment as deterrent. They would want to not get caught rather than not do it. For a small percentage of people it may be a deterrent.

So we have to stop making criminals by ensuring justice. When justice is denied, it creates more criminals, even perception of denied justice and victim hood can create more criminals.

@praveenarimbrathod "So society as a whole is responsible for murders, terrorists, rapists etc." - Agreed.. but its very difficult I tell you..
Ill just type down what i feel about crime in our society.. This might not have anything to do with the death penalty but since we are talking about 'society being responsible for crimes' and we both agree on it , here goes-

We have become a consumerist society.. At least the people in Chennai have become.. Everyone wants the latest gadget and wants to drive/ ride a nice car/bike , wants to go to the mall and buy expensive stuff.. FOR FREE! Without having to work for it! .. Noone seems satisfied.. Especially with youngsters , the pressure is too much .. the pressure to keep up.. If you do not own the latest smartphone , you are out! You are looked down upon .. Trust me , this is how it was when i graduated from college 7 yrs back and this is how it is now.. in fact worse! ..And this is not just the case with middle class .. its the same in the slums too , you could ask any of your maids / milkmans / iron walas and they will tell you the same .. you know what happens next? ..They resort to stealing! ..And stealing is the smallest form of crime ..the more courageous ones resort to chain snatching, etc.. and believe me , they do not "feed" their family with their money as some of us might think .. they fulfill their desires of keeping up with our society.. And the corporations and the media encourage it.. why wouldnt they? ..The more the merrier! ..You keep flashing those so called "party" video songs on tv all the time , the kids feel THAT is life and thats that! .. Im not blaming anyone in particular .. But I feel we've become too much of a consumerist society and everyones in on the rat race .. and that everyone needs everything .. that too quick! and without having to work much for it..

Eventually what happens is , people who can afford it have no problems .. and those who cant , and are impatient, resort to criminal ways to fulfill their desires..

Im sorry if I went off topic .. but this is what I feel about crime..
And so coming back to society as a whole being responsible.. how do we change that? ..

And now I feel I've typed too much and that since this thread is "public" .. Im getting paranoid now! :|

@arjun I'll write an article in protest if you get arrested :p

@vidyut hahaha ..hey make me look like a hero yeah? ..
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Now you know why i asked you if you ever were threatened?

And like I said. the trick is in being a big enough voice that silencing you will cause uproar, and small enough that there is no need to silence you ;)

While the risks of killing you are bigger than those of letting you live.... you'll be fine :p

@vidyut i absolutely agree! .. and i shall remember that :)

We should stand against death penalty. Agreed

Since we already have a consensus on this, I think a separate vote in "Permanent Members" sub group is redundant. We can add the following to our manifesto. "We will abolish death penalty".