codema.in
Sat 3 Jul 2021 1:33PM

How can we celebrate positive aspects of our nation without the use of language that has been hijacked by racist parties in the past

PV Pirate Vik Public Seen by 45

Terms such as Nationalist have been mired by european parties like the National Front. Is there better language that allows us to find a consensus with people who wish to celebrate their nations successes. Are we really that far part or are these issues of division partly caused by the use of language that means different things to different people?

PV

Pirate Vik Tue 6 Jul 2021 12:03PM

I think @Pankaj Jangid is equating Varna with a meritocracy. The disagreement seems to be only around the choice of the word. Would you both agree with that statement?

PJ

Pankaj Jangid Wed 7 Jul 2021 4:16AM

It is one part. But it also involves choice. See I was shudra when born. Then I gained education and I chose to be vaishy. Definitely I must have the skillset to do that. Also, in future I may chose to become a kshatriya (when we are a political party). Again I'll require the necessary skills.

PV

Pirate Vik Wed 7 Jul 2021 9:07AM

@Pankaj Jangid Whilst reading more into this topic I found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WhoWerethe_Shudras%3F there seems to be quite some confusion of what these terms actually mean and they seem to mean different things to different groups

PJ

Pankaj Jangid Wed 7 Jul 2021 10:49AM

Yes this was Babasaheb Ambedkar's view. Because of the prevailing conditions at that time. Remember people are not formally learning Vedas, Puranas etc. And corrupt people in the religious orgs would want to keep it that way. See this sloka from Skand Puran

Why would existing brahmins, sitting at highest seat, want this? My point is that, let people know this.

PP

Pirate Praveen Wed 7 Jul 2021 12:04PM

I agree with your right for mobility. What I disagree with you is insisting it is already mobile. For thousands of years there was no mobility and just claiming it has mobility is not going to work. I don't agree it is only bad people misusing it.

PP

Pirate Praveen Wed 7 Jul 2021 12:06PM

In case of conflicts, the priority is also well defined. So Puranas can't override what is in Vedas.

PV

Pirate Vik Thu 8 Jul 2021 8:31AM

What I think would be helpful is a clear narrative with which to engage religious groups. Even between the three of us we are not able to seemingly find a middle ground. The modern class system which we live under equates to that created in the USA - "The Collar System". People do not seemingly object much and they mainly stick to their "Collar" and marriages also tend to happen with the same group who have cultural practices (Football vs Cricket for example). This is similar to what @Pankaj Jangid describes as his understanding of Varna. If we want to engage people who identify with a religion, could we do so with a narrative encouraging them to modernise terminology. Explaining that the terms are misunderstood and we should come up with new language and systems. I think we might find people who are willing to engage.

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:20PM

@Pirate Praveen is varna really means profession, then does it have anything much to do with our position on the caste? We have adopted a position there which was achieved through consensus but here in this thread I am looking to see how we find middle ground with other people and it seems that language is often being used as a tool of division by focusing on the difference amongst people. One caveat, I do not know the 100% correct translation of varna so apologies for that!

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:23PM

and if Varna does really mean profession, shouldn't we engage with religious groups and publicise to them that the religious basis of caste should be annihilated and that they already have the definition of profession within their system - so they do not lose anything by coming towards our view.

PJ

Pankaj Jangid Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:51PM

In fact, if we are thinking realistically about launching a political party, then we must utilize all the tools that are available. A billion people already revere Vedas. Explain to them what is written in it instead of telling them that you are reading the wrong book. We must bring people closer to us.

PP

Pirate Praveen Mon 5 Jul 2021 5:59PM

I don't think what @Pankaj Jangid saying here is the generally accepted role of varnas. It is hierarchical by definition and there was no mobility between varnas in practice.

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 6:11PM

I see and I agree that is problematic, but his approach to try and find a ground with which to work with "the billion people". So what can we do in this area? What solutions can we come up with?

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 6:13PM

The N Word is specifically an example of language that has been reappropriated by a community in order to take control and redefine what it means.

PJ

Pankaj Jangid Tue 6 Jul 2021 3:31AM

Yes. Corruption was always there. Brilliant work done by sages is at risk now due to those corrupt people.

PJ

Pankaj Jangid Tue 6 Jul 2021 3:33AM

What I am trying to say is that - let us show people the sources. And prove that varnas can be changed as per the scriptures.

PP

Pirate Praveen Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:34AM

Mobility is not the only issue with division. The punishment for same crime is proportional to your position in the hierarchy. Also why would people accept us as authority on choosing books, they don't. The authority to interpret these books and their hierarchies are also well defined.

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:30PM

National pride is related to feelings of patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism is love of one’s country or dedicated allegiance to same, while nationalism is a strong national devotion that places one’s own country above all others. National pride co-exists with patriotism and is a prerequisite of nationalism, but nationalism extends beyond national pride, and feeling national pride is not equivalent to being nationalistic (Smith & Jarkko, 1998)

PV

Pirate Vik Mon 5 Jul 2021 3:33PM

National Pride seems fine but Nationalism "placing one's own country above all others" seems unhelpful. I think nation states and cultural identities are important to people, but placing one's own country above all others creates division and tribes.

PP

Pirate Praveen Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:29AM

What is negative about Patriotism?

PV

Pirate Vik Tue 6 Jul 2021 9:33AM

I don't think there is anything negative about patriotism. I think Nationalism is the problem.