Doubt clarification regarding membership

then what about initial members?

Initial members had the same rights as permanent members but for a limited time (special case). Now it is a historic fact only, there cannot be any more Initial members.

@praveenarimbrathod I like the idea of the two tier system you just mentioned. "Associate" and then "Member".. The term "permanent" gives you a feeling of a hierarchical system.

@praveenarimbrathod so what you are saying is that since it's not a political party yet as a whole we aren't using the pirate party of India label right? .. And yes ofcourse, we aren't there yet I agree..

I like the concept of "associate" as an introductory process @praveen - the lack of membership is then clear and the actual membership is a single tier. So it could be described as someone who agrees with the constitution and has stated an intention to join the party which would normally be up for consideration when he formally applies anytime after the mandatory 6 month waiting period which will serve as a mutual probation to ensure that the individual's objectives (note: not opinions, or methods) are in alignment with the larger group.

This opens another area that will need fixing. Associates should not be able to start or lead initiatives on behalf of Indian Pirates. Because they aren't members. They may participate, as that is the purpose of the introductory period - a test drive, but formally, not holding any recognized position in the party, they cannot act on its behalf.

This will probably require a provision to truncate the waiting period and approve an associate as permanent member early, if a necessary and time sensitive initiative by them is adopted by the party. This should be on a case by case basis and only in situations where the associate is a more appropriate leader than existing permanent member (for reasons of competence or willingness) AND the initiative is time sensitive, meaning that it cannot wait for the associate's 6 month probationary period to be over. This should require a majority vote by permanent members along with discussion of reasons as to truncate the probationary period (as opposed to only two).

All these are recommendations, of course. But I think robust processes with contingency norms explicit will save us a lot of headaches down the road.

@arjun yes, we are not prepared to be a political party.

@vidyut I think the following address your concern.

• minimum level to propose new activities or sub group is associates (excludes enthusiasts)
• at least one member should back the proposal
• to lead an initiative that uses Indian Pirates label, an associate needs support from at least two members
• enthusiasts can join discussions and sub groups

Anyone who joins our loomio group is an enthusiast (we can use a better label if there is a suggestion)

This way we don't unnecessarily limit associates, but adds a level of safeguard in case of misuse.

@praveenarimbrathod I agree with @vidyut.. Associates shouldn't be allowed to start a new activity.. Although they would be allowed to participate..in short associate =under probationary period(6 months) during which we evaluate him/her.. And then he/she could apply for a membership..

Also, we are a group of 90 just for namesake.. Hardly 15-20 of us are active.. So keep in mind that if we were to change the membership system now, we'd have only about 20 members and the remaining would be "Associates".

@praveenarimbrathod you cannot call an activity an Indian Pirates activity if it is led by someone else. The person in charge should be a member accountable (progress, funds, decisions taken) to Indian Pirates. If it is necessary for an associate to lead something for any reason, then permanent members should discuss said necessity and do a vote to make him permanent before his six months are up. Otherwise it is Indian Pirates endorsing/funding an independent activity.

I think people on the forum who aren't associates or permanent members should simply be called forum participants - they may enter or exit on whim and it is not a concern of ours.

Though there should be a decision on whether forum participants can participate in activities officially (unofficially of course anyone can participate in public activities) but as in having a proper role and responsibility in the work.

These things I bring up may sound excessively tedious, but they are important to defining an organization, its membership and its engagement with non-members.

@arjun When I joined the original Pirate Party email list, there were 13 or something people I think. It shouldn't be a problem. If we are a thriving community with adequate vision and action, it is very easy to promote and expand. At that time, I remember Twitter promotions and such alone swelled us to a few hundred - though most were not active. Six months isn't such a long time for people to rapidly clear probation periods and enter..

@praveenarimbrathod notice the distinction between propose and lead. Anyone can propose. I proposed the LPG subsidy survey. But if Indian Pirates adopt the project, then that person may well participate, but a permanent member will be accountable for it. If no permanent member volunteers, then the person proposing should be made permanent if the activity is important enough. Or we can remain content with waiting to do it ourselves when permanent, or hunting down and convincing a permament member to take charge or whatever. Without this, you won't have any control on what happens in the name of the party.

@vidyut I second that.. This new membership system makes much more sense

So do we all agree about the new membership system or do we need a vote? .. Cuz quite a few new members have been requesting d past couple of days

@vidyut I think if two permanent members trust an associate member, that is enough. Those permanent members accept responsibility. But I'm open to making it endorsed by Permanent Members as a requirement. I think 6 months minimum period gives an opportunity to get to know a person, I don't think its necessary to make that person a permanent member to be able to lead an activity.

@arjun I'll propose the name change as a vote. We can discuss other things a bit more to reach consensus.

also there should be clarification regarding the voting rights of associates and members. i mean the conditions to accept and reject a proposal should be made clear.

another doubt is, can associates propose amendments to the Constitution? my personal opinion is that it should be allowed and then the amendments can be accepted with the support of enough members (2 members may not be enough since Constitution amendments should be considered more seriously).

@vidyut @praveenarimbrathod so what about the already existing sub groups like initial members and associate members?.. Well need to have just two groups
1) ASSOCIATES and
2) PERMANENT MEMBERS OR MEMBERS

How do we go about that?

@ambadyanands I feel associates should be allowed suggestions but any real change should be at the discretion of the permanent members after voting
And like @vidyut said earlier, they shouldn't be allowed to start a thread, rather suggest one and then a permanent member could start the thread.. Cuz as associates they cannot act on our behalf.. They are still being evaluated.. (evaluated might not be the appropriate term but I hope you get what I mean)

@arjun if associates can't start new threads then how they can share their ideas with others? instead of restricting associates from thread creation i suggest forming a sub group (public) where associates can start new threads.

@arjun i think what you meant is "associates shouldn't be allowed to start new activities in the name of Indian Pirates". if that's the case, i agree. but as i always say, "it's the ideas which should matter the most, not their source". so if associates share some good ideas for a new activity then they should be allowed with the support of enough members (aka permanent members). and as @vidyut said there should be at least one member (or two) which can be held accountable for the accepted activities proposed by associates.

@arjun starting thread won't change anything. I think you are over reacting too much here. Associate just means, we have not had enough opportunity to know them. Let them participate freely and needs approval only when there is a proposal or wants to use our name outside in an activity.

We can rename the sub groups once proposal passes.

@ambadyanands that's exactly what I meant.. Can't start activities.. @praveenarimbrathod Pl refer to @ambadyanands above comment.. Thats what I meant to say

@praveenarimbrathod yeah man that's what I meant.. Thats why I referred to "vidyuts" comment earlier

Started proposal https://codema.in/d/SDjoUZly/constitution-restructure-rights-article